Bocce Music Life
A show about Bocce, Music, and everything in between. Hosted by Andy Zimmerman of the Chicago Bocce Club, each interview takes place while playing a game of bocce at the club. Produced by Daniel Morrow of Music in the Hall.
Bocce Music Life
Two Andy Zimmermans Walk Into a Bocce Club
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This pilot episode of Bocce Music Life is about competition, community, and what happens when you stop performing your life for everyone else. Host Andy Zimmerman of the Chicago Bocce Club is joined by guest Andy Zimmerman who brings the perspective of someone who found bocce late and then got genuinely hooked. He talks about discovering the game in 2023, falling for the physics and strategy, and why the Chicago Bocce Club feels like a rare third space for people who want both structure and belonging. He is a jazz saxophonist who stepped away from music for the past two years. The conversation opens up into identity, midlife pivots, and what it means to choose a life that feels like your own. You'll discover:
- Why bocce can feel like chess with athleticism and community built in
- How a backyard court and a first tournament can change the direction of a life
- What it looks like to leave professional music behind without abandoning your identity
- How the club is becoming a place where strangers quickly become a team
Essential listening if you’ve ever wondered whether your life needs a full reinvention, or just the right game, the right people, and a little more room to breathe.
Hosted by Andy Zimmerman of Chicago Bocce Club, American Bocce Co, and the Bucktown Billy Goats of the Chicago Bocce League
Produced by Daniel Morrow of Music in the Hall
Recorded at Chicago Bocce Club in July 2026
What am I doing here, Andy? Am I gonna gentle Rundina Rafa your ball from this distance? I mean, you have a ball to spare, but that's not a good idea, is it?
SPEAKER_02I don't love her. Hey, it's Andy Z, and I'm here with my good friend Andy Z. Nice to meet you. Uh we're both named Andy Zimmerman, and we're here on a pilot episode of Bocce Music Life. So we're gonna play a game of bocce and talk about those things. Do you like those things, Andy?
SPEAKER_01Those are the only three things we qualify to talk about. Yeah. Perfect. That's perfect.
SPEAKER_02Being our first episode, I I felt a lot more comfortable having two Andy Zimmermans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I hope that gives you some comfort as well.
SPEAKER_01I hope that you branch out to people with other names eventually. We'll see. Yeah. Because there are some other Andy Zimmermans we could get in here.
SPEAKER_02We do, we do. And that's our goal, is to get bigger and bigger guests, like head chef of Sepia, Andrew Zimmerman. Someday. All right. Alrighty.
SPEAKER_01Star. Thanks for being star kick. Good start. Alright, man. Alright, good boccee. Say what they say? Uh we started saying that.
SPEAKER_02We started saying that. Uh I believe that's your decision.
SPEAKER_01I know where do you not want it, though? That's where I want to put it. Uh, we're your worst.
unknownAlright.
SPEAKER_02So how did you find bocce?
SPEAKER_01I started playing bocce probably in 2023. I have a friend who's got a 75-foot court in his backyard. Uh I live in Oak Park, and he lives in Oak Park. So I got the invite, and actually, the first time I ever played, I had a kind of spiritual connection with the game. I saw the the balls were like planets and the physics were playing out on the court, and it just like instantly clicked with me. So I've always loved the game since I started playing. But the thing with that court is you only can play there when you're invited. And when you're invited, there's no warming up, there's no practicing. You just show up and you start playing a match. And so when this place opened, this is the first time I had access to a boccee court where I could mess around, experiment with nobody watching, usually. Um that's true.
SPEAKER_02For a lot of us, yeah, this is especially us city dwellers. This is the first opportunity we've had to come practice on our own, play kick-up games. Anything non-structured can occur here at the Chicago Bocce Club. I'm gonna try to shoot that out. Oh buddy. So interesting, you mentioned that Oak Park backyard game. I have been invited to this thanks to my friend Billy D. Billy D who runs an American bocce league at Roberts West Side in Forest Park. He lives in Oak Park. Yes, found that on a garden walk.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I know.
SPEAKER_02He was on a garden walk and he left a little note in the scoreboard. Yes. I play bocce. I would love to check out these courts. Give me a call. So he got invited into that circle and inevitably invited me. I've probably been invited six or eight times.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02I've was available two times. I went and played uh it's very cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a nice place.
SPEAKER_02And they're selling, they sold the house, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's changing hands in August, and all of the regulars there are scheming on how they're going to get in good with the new owner. It shouldn't be hard, but the the new owner's gotta be cool, right? I don't know. I mean, it could be one of these, you know, uh, like it could be like an oil tycoon that just wants to rip the boxe court down, you know. Um, what am I doing here, Andy? Am I gonna gentle Rondina Rafa your ball from this distance? I mean, you have a ball to spare, but that's not a good idea, is it? I don't love her. Because if I hit the inside of your ball, I'm in bad shape. So I should just point in.
SPEAKER_02As an instructor, I would recommend a point as a player. Take your best shot.
SPEAKER_01Uh I'm gonna go with the instructor advice and just try to point in. I can make this usually 10 out of 10 times. See, I overcompensated for the adrenaline. Now I have to point in, right?
SPEAKER_02Almost. I would say about 80-20 here.
SPEAKER_01Alright, watch this.
SPEAKER_02If that works, it's gonna be great. We're gonna call that good. So, Andy, I've seen you here at the club a lot. I loved what you said about the first time you played boty, how you just had a connection to it. Yeah, yeah. I have a very similar experience that I my first experience in bocce was in 2008. I signed up for a tournament at Pinstripes. Pinstripes. I walked in, I was just captivated by River River North location. No, no, the one in uh up on um in Northbrook. Northbrook. On Willow Road. It was a brand new facility. I was making flower deliveries at the time, and I just turned into the parking lot, had a big poster, signed up, paid for the tournament, having never rolled a ball. Really? And then I made three phone calls and I said, Do you want to play a bocce tournament? Uh-huh. And all three guys said yes, and our careers began.
SPEAKER_01So who were those three people, if you don't mind me asking?
SPEAKER_02That was Frankie Ostello, Frankie Pelesi, and Chris Foley.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Two paisons. Yeah, they were bad pieces. Here we go.
SPEAKER_02A little short. They are very much Italian, but it was not their identity. So we played that tournament, and the gentleman running the tournament was Leo Giannatti. Oh, yeah. And he saw us and identified us as young players. We were in our young 30s at a time, and asked us how we found out about it, asked us why we were throwing the ball crazy. We were throwing the ball very high in the oh yeah, you know, this kind of thing. Uh and it was really welcoming to us, was giving us a lot of pointers, a lot of tips. The team that won that tournament was Jose Boto and Jason Wisneski from Palazzo de Bache. Wow. So we were in our very first experience, we met the club pro Leo Giannati, who became my mentor for the first several years, and his advice is still invaluable today. And uh, two of the best players in America. Right. So right. We were we were, you know, immediately hooked at a pitch pipe in North Park. I like that. And then we had the double down with oh, bocce doesn't just happen on 30-foot courts and bars, bocce doesn't just happen in beaches or lawns or your friends' backyard, you know. Right, right, right. There's there's a path to it. So we were we were immediately bocce junkies and playing right away. And honestly, that first experience was I was so connected to that. Like I like you said, it moved me. I was so connected to that, and that's that's how I'm here today is that I had a lot of strange experiences in my bocce career where a lot of people might have been turned off or turned away, but I love this game. Yeah, and it it's uh it connects like all my synapses, you know. It's like everything that I've liked in my life can be found in one game of bocce. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_01I like to say uh, you know, it captures your imagination, right? It does makes you think you think about it, you know, shower thoughts. I'm gonna go directly at it here.
SPEAKER_02You know, a game of skill that also requires thoughtfulness. You know, like if if chess were uh athletic sport, you know, yeah. It's a it's the perfect combination. That's right. That one's a little better.
SPEAKER_01That'll do. Right not be in. Oh my goodness. It's that podcast adrenaline that's coursing through me right now. There we go.
SPEAKER_02Interesting result. Now sitting three. Uh, you sure are, and I have two balls, so I can't shoot all three of those, but I will try and shoot one. The little one. So, Andy, I know you're a musician. Yeah. And the show is called Vatu Music Life. Yes. So I think, although this is my first interview, uh, I think my conversation about music with you is gonna be a lot different than a lot of other people. Probably true. Yeah. So, what kind of musician are you?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I am a jazz musician. I play tenor saxophone. Oh, that's a nice ball.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. And do you play tenor saxophone professionally? Are you an instructor?
SPEAKER_01There was a time in my life when I both played professionally and was an uh taught a bunch of lessons to students, but I'm currently taking um a little break from playing music.
SPEAKER_02And when you take a break, are you taking a break professionally or do you play saxophone at home every day?
SPEAKER_01I I don't. I've been taking a full break. All right. Uh, and it's been um now two years since I've played a single note on the saxophone.
SPEAKER_02Get out of here. Yeah. Well, so are you are you is it once a jazz musician, always a jazz musician?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I uh I just got to a point where um I needed to take a break from playing.
SPEAKER_02Um and do you want to go into that further or can pass me over it?
SPEAKER_01No, no, that is the what's like this the the main what makes a uh professional jazz musician stop playing jazz? Um it was the crushing insecurity and self-judgment that I I was unable to play three or four notes without some sort of judgmental thought, some intrusive thought coming in and taking me out of the flow state. So I tried to, once I discovered sort of what was going on, I tried to relearn how to play the instrument with a new sense of non-judgmental thought, and I had some success doing that, but it was just very difficult. It was like learning to walk again. And at a certain point, I just sort of thought, wait, who am I doing this for? Who am I trying to prove that I can do this to? And I decided at that point that the best thing to do would be to just stop for a little while and figure out what I want to do instead of just forcing this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's fascinating. So yeah. I thought uh jazz music was about the intrusive thoughts you don't address.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, it's interesting because you know, jazz is based in improvisation, and so whatever you play didn't exist before you played it, and therefore there are no right and wrong notes. Yet I still, even in this um, you know, this art where there is no right or wrong, I was able to bend myself into uh a pretzel basically of judgment and negativity. So I've decided to stop doing that and try to enjoy my life.
SPEAKER_02And how is that going for you?
SPEAKER_01It's going great. You know, hence the bocci, and uh I'm trying not to apply all of those things to my botch. That's a follow-up question. Right.
SPEAKER_02Are you worried that's gonna happen in bocce?
SPEAKER_01Are we gonna lose you? Well, let's see what happens when I uh after this shot here.
SPEAKER_02A lot hinging on this moment here. Oh, thank god. So you're here at least for the rest of the day. Uh yeah, power of positive thinking. Great shot. Uh as you can see, I'm I can very often be a terrible player. Yeah. Uh so maybe that's good. Maybe that's good for the broadcast, is that uh it can teach people how much focus it actually takes to play this game. Well, or maybe I just have a busy mind. So as a gym musician, I'm forgive me for assuming. Forgive it. But in my experience, I'll just go broad. Uh jazz musicians don't love pop music.
SPEAKER_01That is true. Although there's always a few caveats. Like when I was in college in um the early 2000s, all of the people in my department, there are like two things, two pop acts that they would listen to, Radiohead and Bjork. Okay. And then Stravinsky was the first book composer would listen to.
SPEAKER_02Bjork and Radiohead are, you know, they are pop music, but they're unique. Right, right. As far as you know, song craftsmanship and creativity and originality.
SPEAKER_01They were the only bands that were allowed besides you know obscure jazz rusher.
SPEAKER_02Sure, they could be recoverings. There could be a lot worse selections, especially in that era.
SPEAKER_01And I'm sure there's some sort of equivalent now. I don't know who that would be.
SPEAKER_02So is there like an album or an artist that you will go to in time of need?
SPEAKER_01Uh there's nothing that's really current, but um Oh, it doesn't have to be current. Chicago 17 to me is one of the greatest albums ever made. And it's partly because that was the one I grew up in a musically elitist household. But when we drove in my mom's car, she would put on Chicago 17. And that was the one thing that we were sort of allowed to listen to, besides Wagner, Brahms, you know, Schoenberg. Yeah, you know, heavy, heavy, yes, heavy stuff, you know. So I recently was on a walk and I saw a guy dancing to one of these songs next to a parked car. He had the shirt off and he was drinking a beer, and he was dancing to uh Stay the Night, which is the first song on Chicago 17. And it just I remembered, and when I put it on, every song is incredible. Songwriting, like for somebody who is interested in harmony and you know, form and all these sort of elements of music, it's for real.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Nice rip.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna put it right back music, life. Now I know we got a little philosophical there in the music section. Might be a little short. Mind it if I ask how old you are. I am 46 years old. All right, so we're at the same generation. 1979. Okay, I'm a 77. So you've lived a full life, and you you just talked about uh, you know, choosing to step away from music for yeah mental health reasons and that was my midlife um, they call it a midlife crisis.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just fine. There's uh this is mine right here.
SPEAKER_02There's no in the middle of my year, a part of my midlife crisis. Yeah, I said I chose bocce because I don't give a fuck about Corvettes, right? So bocce is kind of a my midlife pivot as well, but it wasn't necessarily because I was in a bad place, but the further removed I am from my past life, the more I realized I was just kind of treading water.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So in your 46 years, yeah. Other than saxophone, is there something you feel you've mastered or maybe a bit of advice, whether cliche or not, that you could pass on to somebody as a life lesson? Like, is there something from your life that you feel like you not necessarily can do better than anyone else, but you're confident that this advice would be a benefit to somebody else?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, there's so many things, but um not to get too heavy, but I this is the heavy part, right? This is where you do get heavy. I believe so. I mean, life is heavy, bud.
SPEAKER_02We're all just doing our best.
SPEAKER_01Well, I spent the first I spent my entire life from the time I was eight years old performing a lifelike experience.
SPEAKER_02For others?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I was so concerned with what other people thought of me that I was constantly plagued by this sense of what other people are thinking about what I'm doing right now, and so everything I would do would be through the lens of what I thought someone else's experience of that, and therefore what their opinion of me would be. You were playing yourself as a a puppet in a way or that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_02Like, did you think that would make you fulfilled or satisfied? Is that is that why, or was it just kind of a default setting?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just didn't want to I never wanted to upset the Apple cart. I never wanted anyone to feel bad. I never wanted to have any negative thoughts uh uh around you know who I was, what I was doing. I had this idea that I was going to be great. Yeah. And anything that didn't serve that narrative would get minimized or pushed away. And so I got into this thing where I was just performing my life to the point where I didn't even really know what I wanted. And so I think my great realization is that trusting yourself and not worrying about what other people think will allow you to see. I'm thinking about this shot.
SPEAKER_02You know, that's really beautiful. I I'm wondering if right now you're I'm I'm doing that. I'm thinking that you're taking too long to roll this ball.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. This is a shot situation. I have two balls here. See, this is where if I had a stick shot, I would use it. Don't you think?
SPEAKER_02I think it would be very useful. However, if you're thinking about either or what we call, if you're aiming in between, if you do take a channel back, you got a security blanket back there as well. All right, here we go. So look at him now. Sir, do you want three this time?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, I'm gonna go for it. I love it. I'm feeling it. Okay. It looks like it's gonna be two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's two is a good shot, though. Uh bad result. Back to this last uh one, I would definitely say shoot underhand so pomano. Because even if you shoot the stick shot, yeah, you know what? The best players have a 30% chance of it sticking sticking. Right, right, right. You know, so well, I think you're a very good player, you know.
SPEAKER_01But I don't even do that. But in that 30%, when you do stick it, you get 130% of the adulation from the crowd. Fair from the imaginary fair, fair. That is true. I've been working on this one. Little Rondina.
SPEAKER_02Well, Daniel's gonna edit all of these so you can win every game. It's better for the club. So that's coming off the wall. Circle. We've touched all the talking points. Is bocce improving your life?
SPEAKER_01It is, yeah. Uh, you know, a big part of um being middle-aged is you know, finding meaning, finding others who uh you can socialize with, right? You know, so joining this club, I've sort of made a whole new pack of friends. Uh you know, you're very well liked here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02I I hope that that keeps it. Well, it is us, it is we who should be thanking you, you know. All right, well, you're welcome. We didn't have you very welcome. There you go.
SPEAKER_01Uh but the game itself has, you know, as we said, captured my imagination. And I really do think about it, and I care about it. And it's like it's a game, but is it okay to care about a game? Absolutely it is, right?
SPEAKER_02I I think the combination you know of community and competition is is something that you know we human beings long for. And while many people will claim to be non-competitive or antisocial, yeah, I think they just haven't found the right community or the right competition for them. Right. So this game I think is the most inviting and the most inclusive, right, right, the most accessible, and we're finding all kinds of, you know, what I've labeled outsiders, you know, everybody that comes to our community is not defined by one thing, right? They're not one typecast. Uh, they are open to new experiences. A lot of transplants, you know, it's now such a big city. We we draw in so many people from all across the states and other countries, and these people are looking for a third space or a community. And uh, I don't know if you saw our promotions leading up to the opening of this club. We said, You already belong. Yeah, let's make it official, right? And that was kind of our mentality is that we've seen this community grow over the last decade into something really special and really accessible for you know, a jazz musician, right, a kindergarten teacher, an engineer, you know, a lawyer. And when we get out here, we're all just batu players, you know, and I I know what anyone.
SPEAKER_01does the lawyers let's let's keep the lawyers out of here let's keep the lawyers out no we got the good ones we got the for every for every lawyer that is stereotypically uh you know perceived as bad right they are in court against what another lawyer right those are yeah yeah but I'm with you I think it's the legal system you know that that we both have an issue with are you rebellious um yeah well not like overtly but I'm a contrarian you know I'll always take the other position yeah I always that I'm uh an anarchist who needs air conditioning and individually wrapped foods that's good I like that conceptually yes but I can't in certain circumstances you know I mean order is necessary and I think uh in our community especially there is good architecture there is a good structure for people to come and and find happiness here I kind of have been enjoying this phase where the club during the day is kind of a little bit empty I feel like it's my own place but I know I know it's gonna you know pick up steam and eventually I'm gonna have to fight somebody for a little court and which I will do.
SPEAKER_02Well the good news is Andy the busiest bocce clubs in America and I'm sure the busiest social clubs here in Chicago not good are mostly empty. You know and I think that is by design you know the leadership structure would limit the amount of memberships to allow right uh the members to fully experience the club that's what we're doing here. Yeah and we don't have a cap on membership right now because we like the flow of it and we anticipate we will get busier but yeah I think you should anticipate that we're going to manage that so everybody can still feel right at home. I think this first year uh I've been talking about this a lot where we're really just focusing on you know not only learning how to run a club best yeah but we're using this opportunity to service our members to give them the full experience sure so that when we inevitably do get busier, they will still feel connected to the club, right? Because right now is the time we have we have our core group of founding members and new members trickling in this year. We do want to increase our numbers but we also want our members to feel the most important you know not like that they're being iced out with too many corporate events or whatever it might be that that is coming in the future. At the same time we do want to bring in more businesses and more corporate events to show them the joy of Vachi show them that they can come here from work and be highly competitive and be happy losing and and just the joy around the court with all the things that can happen. What I would like is a place where I can sleep and do my laundry also well that that place is called a home yeah and we've been selling this as a third space so like there's the work and this is the third space so I think we probably don't have laundry machines on purpose. Right yeah yeah I think we've done a great job out here.
SPEAKER_01I think so too I didn't quite finish my philosophical thought about life and my superpower and uh realizing my um what comes after performing my entire life but I don't know if I can even get back to that thought at this point right.
SPEAKER_02Well do you have an answer?
SPEAKER_01Um because you did say you know yeah I I was very satisfied with uh yeah the idea uh of sharing with others you know make choices for yourself don't right yeah not not don't be a pupil teaser but you know live live for your uh yourself and make your own decisions yeah I think you know when I was living my performance there was always the fear that it was going to break down and I would be exposed as as an imposter sure which I was right because I was performing my life sure and I think now I've stopped running away and stopped avoiding and I have enough trust in myself that I'll be okay in any situation that I can just kind of relax into my own being and I think that's where the meaning is in my that is there you go and I will I will add to that that when it comes to fear you can always run from it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah but you will always be running from that's right and you have to decide what is the worst thing that can happen to me if I face this fear. Just shoot your pants well if it's actually a terrifying experience or else but uh a hypothetical you know fear internal shitting your pants is worse than dying right you know it's pretty bad and I think you will agree that shooting your pants is no big deal if nobody finds out right yeah but shitting your pants in front of a bunch of people then you're just the shit your pants guy for the rest of your life. And that is absolutely why I refuse to wear white pants on the CDL. That's good that's good that's good. And my teammates called me crazy and I said you never know.
SPEAKER_01That's right yeah but it only takes one time. So that's why you have the dark uh the dark blue pants absolutely that's good good call good call well that's a great note to end on yeah thank you thanks for hanging out Pochi Music Life